The number one priority for the 2013 legislative season should be holding Ken Cuccinelli and Bob Marshall to task and exposing their extremist views so that Cooch cannot become governor and both are never elected to office again. Yes, I'm concerned about roads and education and the economy, but none of that will matter if I'm not free.

Gail- From your comments I'm sure you stand opposed to NDAA as well right? If you do you have something in common with Cuccinelli- if you don't oppose NDAA then obviously freedom matters not to you.

Neil, from your comments I'm sure you support Al Qaida, right? (Of course you don't -- but my statement is no more absurd than yours about NDAA.) Yes, I am personally opposed to the provision in NDAA that may allow detention of American citizens on American soil -- but that is not the most important issue currently threatening my freedom. In essense NDAA presents procedural issues related to freedom -- nobody argues that the USA can't hold someone indefinitely (even for life) provided someone besides just the President is making the decision (i.e., the courts) and the decision is made in conformity with the law (NDAA is such a law). While procedures are important to protecting liberty, Cuccinelli and Marshall present threats to our freedoms that aren't merely procedural but are rather substantive.
Obviously, one can support NDAA and still care very much about freedom, so obviously you were wrong about Gail.

What Tom said. Thanks, Tom.

It's all about due process, Neil. Kookinelli and Marshall want to take away the rights of women and LGBT persons who have committed no crime, and they want to criminalize the exercise of those rights.

"It's all about due process, Neil. Kookinelli and Marshall want to take away the rights of women and LGBT persons who have committed no crime, and they want to criminalize the exercise of those rights."

Again, lying here about the ultrasound law and ignoring the fact that prior to the ultrasound law in last session, 99% of abortion clinics in Virginia (including 100% of Planned Parenthood clinics), were already providing ultrasounds as part of the process. The bill was an update on Virginia’s informed-consent law, and didn’t require a particular kind of ultrasound, but mandated that the “standard medical practice in the community” for an ultrasound be followed.

Now, as for abortion clinics, shouldn't abortion clinics be held to a cleanliness standard?

The grand jury report in the case of abortionist Kenneth Gosnell noted how he spread venereal disease among his patients by using filthy instruments. Women deserve better.

Now, as for LGBT, the State Board of Social Services voted 7-2 against rules that would have prohibited discrimination in adoptions "on the basis of gender, age, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, disability, family status, race, color or national origin." Members cited the advice of Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli that the rules under consideration violated state law.

As for discrimination at the college level, in an opinion the Attorney General issued which, as the top lawyer for the Commonwealth of Virginia, Mr. Cuccinelli simply advised his client, the Commonwealth’s publicly funded Universities, that they lacked the legal authority from the General Assembly to implement anti-discrimination policies on their own. It should also be noted that no where in Mr. Cuccinelli’s memo did he say he condoned discrimination on the basis of sexual preference, but only stated that the legislature MUST act before the Universities can act on their own.

So much for criminalizing LGBTs ...

Lee- Thanks for bothering us with the factual details- but I must say the rhetoric is far easier to regurgitate. Knowing all that detailed fact based stuff looks like far too much work.

Neil - As a former Liberal myself, I've learned you have to hit the modern-day Liberal with facts. Problem is, they then run out of rhetoric to regurgitate.

The ultrasounds that were performed were external - i.e., on the outside of the stomach/uterus, not through a probe in the vagina. Big difference. Having had both, I can tell you that an external ultrasound is painless and a vaginal ultrasound is decidely uncomfortable. Lee, until someone sticks a wand in YOUR vagina, don't lecture me on vaginas. And yes, I said vagina.

Neil, as a former Barry Goldwater conservative, I know how modern conservative argument goes: pick one obscure "fact" out of a big topic, throw it out as "red meat," and your fellow conservatives will praise you for "bothering with the facts." . So for the benefit of other readers here -- recognizing that Lee and Neil are probably uneducable -- let me present some additional facts which contradict the impression our conservatives are trying to leave here:
1) The State Board of Social Services voted the way it did after undue pressure from Cuccinelli, It wasn't his "legal opinion" that dissuaded them, it was his announcement that he would not defend them (despite an oath of office requiring him to do so) if they adopted the proposed anti-discrimination policy, and board members would thus be personally liable for their own defense -- something no low-paid or unpaid board member would willingly take on.
2) Cuccinelli is little more than a partisan political hack, elected to office in a partisan election and carrying out his duties in a clearly partisan fashion. While he is the head of the "legal department" of state government at the moment, he doesn't qualify as a "top" lawyer -- he's a rather mediocre lawyer, in fact.

And as for the obscure "fact" implied by the rhetorical question, "Now, as for abortion clinics, shouldn't abortion clinics be held to a cleanliness standard?" -- cleanliness was already required of such clinics in the same way it is required of doctor's offices. The bill in question wasn't about filling a gap in cleanliness requirements -- it was about trying to shut down abortion clinics by making them meet hospital standards rather than doctor's-office standards -- things like extra-wide corriders to allow for 2 gurneys to pass. The fact is that nobody who supports abortion rights -- including the women who theoretically would be "protected" by some new "cleanliness" standard -- NONE of them voted for this bill. And every legislator who is opposed to abortion rights voted FOR it. Facts. There's no question about intent, and there's no question that Lee's bit about cleanliness is intended as a big lie cloaked in a tidbit of truth -- a typical con job by a con-servative.

This is my final post on this thread . . . not because of some "facts" shutting down my "rhetoric" but because it is impossible to have an honest debate with a dishonest debater.

Tom - Somehow, I think this Virginia Beach woman would disagree with you on abortion clinics...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjiScHKyBTk

As for the abortion clinics rules, Senate Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.

Ben Tribbett @ Not Larry Sabato wrote (http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/doh/2011/02/democrats-are-responsible-for-the-abortion-regulations-passing.html):

"Usually these regulations are killed in the Education and Health committee, which is controlled by pro-choice Senators.

However, Senate Democrats were napping as Ryan McDougle, a pro-life Republican introduced SB924 this year which changed the same Code of Virginia section that anti-abortion activists have been trying to add these regulations into. The Senate passed McDougle’s bill 40-0 instead of killing it and demanding the House send this bill over first.

Because of this screw up- the House of Delegates was able to amend the bill to add in the abortion restrictions and send it back to the Senate. When a bill has already passed a body and is amended it goes to the floor- not to committee- and Senate Democratic leaders knew they had 2 Senators on the floor who would vote with the 18 Republicans to pass this regulation into law."

As John Adams said, sometimes facts are stubborn things

Well, I was going to let Hernly's continuing lies go . . . but I must encourage everyone to watch the video which he claims supports his side. It does nothing of the sort. Despite words on the screen suggesting that Planned Parenthood employees were "panicked" they seemed very calm and collected and acting very professionally. Despite the claims of the so-called "pro-life" people who put this together, there is zero evidence to suggest that the woman in question -- who was transported to a hospital for internal bleeding after an abortion -- would in any way support their position. Facts, as Lee Hernly is fond of saying, are stubborn things -- and pretending that you are dealing in facts when you are only dealing in guesswork and opinions makes you -- as I said earlier -- a dishonest debater.
As for having "no one to blame but themselves" -- what utter nonsense! Look at the votes on the bill in question: 19 Republicans and 2 Democrats voted against us. I would say we have a LOT more than "ourselves" to blame -- we have the anti-liberty Republicans! Facts. Stubborn things, Mr. Hernly. Even when you try to lie, the truth will out!

So McDougle's bill & General Assembly rules be damned eh Tom?

Here's the list of Senate Democrats to blame for the bill passing so that it would come back to the floor and not the Senate committee which would have (and should have in my view) killed the bill.

http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2011/sb924/sv0176/

But, as is the modern Liberal Democrat way, blame someone else when your party screws up, and take credit for things you had nothing to do with.

I feel like I'm debating someone who knows little to nothing about the operations of a legislative body but thinks he knows everything. He also seems to have a "facts-be-invented" approach to his hatred for Democrats.
The initial bill in question (see his link) was a non-controversial bill that had nothing to do with the issue of abortion. The bill passed the Senate with 100% support from BOTH parties. What happened AFTER that is where the problem arose. House Republicans stripped the Senate bill of everything it said, substituted the despicable provisions about abortion-providing clinics, and sent it back to the Senate. At that point - when you're merely "working out differences between the House and Senate versions of a bill" -- legislation doesn't go back to committee, it goes directly to the floor. The Republicans pulled a trick here and kept the shell of the original bill but substituted something totally unrelated - and got away with it.
Unfortunately, Senate Democrats didn't foresee the depths to which the House Republicans would stoop -- and they rightfully take some blame for not being sufficiently savvy to realize what guttersnipes House Republicans are. But to say "Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves" surely twists the meaning of words beyond recognition! The blame for the horrible bill (in its final form) lies squarely with the Republicans who pushed for it -- NOT with the Senate Democrats, who opposed it by a 90% to 10% margin!

Tom -

" House Republicans stripped the Senate bill of everything it said, substituted the despicable provisions about abortion-providing clinics, and sent it back to the Senate. At that point - when you're merely "working out differences between the House and Senate versions of a bill" -- legislation doesn't go back to committee, it goes directly to the floor."

Wrong. The Senate Democrats knew the GOP game plan on abortion clinics in advance in 2011 and were caught napping during the vote on the original bill. The original SB924 stated:

"Requires the Board of Health to promulgate regulations containing minimum standards for policies related to infection prevention, disaster preparedness, and facility security of hospitals, nursing homes, and certified nursing facilities. "

The bill was then sent to the House where it was amended to include abortion clinics and not 'stripped of everything it said' by the House Republicans who passed the amended version of the bill. Then it came back directly to the floor of the Senate for debate and a vote. Again, you are passing blame here.

As John Adams said, sometimes facts are stubborn things.

Mr. Hernly, you are right (and I was wrong) on one point -- it wasn't "strip and replace" but rather "add to" that changed a non-controversial bill into a despicable one. However, the rest of your post is still baloney. Repeatedly calling your interpretations "facts" doesn't make them so.
There is zero evidence that Democrats knew Republicans planned to use SB924 to deal with abortion clinics. Beyond that, there is zero justification for blaming Democrats for something Republicans did -- and solely because Democrats failed to stop the Republicans? I suppose, based on your logic, that everyone who is murdered or robbed in America "has nobody but the police to blame" because the police obviously failed to prevent the crime! Your attempt to shift the blame from the actual villains -- the Republicans in the legislature -- to those who were unsuccessful in stopping them is absolutely ridiculous.
As someone (perhaps me?) once said, people can sometimes be as stubborn as mules, especially those who pathologically can't admit they're wrong about anything.

Tom -

Was 2011 the first time the Virginia GOP tried to pass a law like this? No. You can scan through previous similar bills proposed in the General Assembly that died in the Senate committee. This time, the Democrats got out maneuvered.

All I am simply saying is that I would think (hope) that the average Democrat would know a bill going over to the General Assembly relating to minimum standards for health facilities would be trouble.

As a former Democrat/Liberal who has been in abortion clinics myself, I can certainly understand the need for standards for these facilities. Women deserve to have the confidence to believe that the Doctor's office/clinic they go to is clean and safe.

After all, I'm sure the community doesn't want another Kenneth Gosnell on it's hands.